Over Forty Wellness Podcast
Over Forty Wellness Podcast
"Make Meaningful Work" with Josephine Wong and Daniel Szuc
What makes work truly meaningful, and how do our daily interactions shape the cultures we live and work in? This thought-provoking conversation with Josephine Wong and Daniel Szuc reveals powerful insights from their 26-year journey researching human-centered design and workplace transformation.
After noticing a troubling disconnect between the empathy preached in human-centered design and the actual behaviors of practitioners, Jo and Daniel embarked on a mission to understand how we might create more meaningful work experiences. Their research culminated in two groundbreaking books: "Make Meaningful Work: From Sleepwalking to Sparkle" and "Make Meaningful Culture: Healthy, Intentional Conduct in Moments That Matter," with a third focused on education in progress.
At the heart of their philosophy lies a simple yet profound idea: culture is created through "how you conduct yourselves in the interactions and relationships between people in moments that matter." Rather than abstract theories, they offer practical frameworks for identifying, inspecting, and improving specific behaviors that create healthy or unhealthy conduct chains. Their SPARKLE framework—Supportive, Proactive, Adaptable, Respect, Kind, Listening, and Engaged—provides a memorable structure for intentional conduct.
What distinguishes their approach is its practicality. While many self-help and business culture books leave readers wondering "what do I actually do with this?", Jo and Daniels methodology pinpoints specific moments for intervention and encourages small, achievable actions. This bridges the crucial gap between knowing and doing that derails most change efforts.
Their most powerful advice? "It's not all about you. Be curious about other people, be curious about other cultures. Don't get caught up with narrow narratives." By expanding our perspectives, connecting dots between diverse ideas, and taking intentional action, we shape not only our personal narratives but contribute to healthier collective experiences.
Ready to transform your work experience from sleepwalking to sparkle? Discover how intentional conduct in moments that matter can create meaningful change in your workplace, relationships, and beyond.
Chapter Markers
- 0:16 It's Not All About You
- 1:18 Introduction to the Podcast
- 4:09 Meeting Josephine Wong and Daniel Szuc
- 10:01 Defining Meaningful Work
- 21:43 Make Meaningful Work and Culture
- 32:08 From Words to Practical Action
- 43:08 Make Meaningful Education
- 48:22 Advice for Listeners
Contact Dan and Jo
LI: www.linkedin.com/in/danielszuc/
LI: www.linkedin.com/in/josephine-wong-6801922/
Contact Vincent
Pro Coach: https://procoach.app/vincent-hiscox
Email: vincent.hiscox@outlook.com
LinkedIn: Vincent Hiscox
It's not all about you. Be curious about other people, be curious about other cultures. Be curious in differences. Be curious in similarities. Travel, read. Don't get caught up with narrow narratives. Don't fall into the trap of biases and scapegoating and looking for enemies or pushing away the responsibility to improve. Take responsibility for your own narrative, but in doing that, it's not all about you. The way that you improve your narrative is join a podcast, go for lunch, read a book, watch shows where other people are talking to other intelligent people. Immerse in local, immerse in global Form your own story, but don't be too carried away with yourself and your own ego within that story.
Vincent Hiscox:Hi, I'm Vincent Hiscox, a health coach, podcaster and storyteller. Welcome to the Over 40 Wellness Podcast. We all have the ability to look better and feel better. Becoming healthy should not be complicated. On this podcast, I talk to health and wellness professionals who share their stories and their expertise so that you can optimize your health. The conversations will inspire and empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice to transform the way you feel, look better and feel better with the Over 40 Wellness Podcast.
Vincent Hiscox:My guests on the podcast this week are Josephine Wong and Daniel Szuc. Jo and Dan are co-founders and principals at Apogee and co-founders of Make Meaningful Work and UX Hong Kong. Their core focus is to introduce human-centred design into Hong Kong and regional business. Together, joe and Dan co-authored Make Meaningful Work and Make Meaningful Culture. We discuss these two books in the podcast. A third book is in progress Make Meaningful Culture. We discuss these two books in the podcast. A third book is in progress Make Meaningful Education.
Vincent Hiscox:In the podcast, we discuss what meaningful means and what do you do to make meaningful work. Moving from sleepwalking, feeling stuck to sparkle, supportive, proactive, adaptable, respect, kind listening and engaged. A phrase that comes up often in the podcast is moments that matter Pivotal experiences that significantly influence work, culture, shape decision making and build stronger connected relationships. Jo and Dan share their inputs on how listeners can help themselves to reflect in a structured way, whether it's at work or in a family setting, how you conduct yourself, the interaction and relationship between people in moments that matter. It's not all about you. Be curious about other people, other cultures, differences, similarities, travel, read, avoid biases, take responsibility for your own narrative, form your own story with new chapters being added, and just work on being smarter in moments that matter. So good morning Jo, good morning Dan. How are you Good? Yeah, we're well. Yeah, so take two of the podcast.
Daniel Szuc:After a minor technical problem Feels a little bit like Groundhog Day with Bill Murray.
Vincent Hiscox:Feels like Groundhog Day. Yeah, usually I start the podcast off by getting you to introduce yourself. So maybe, joe, you could, you could go first, sure?
Josephine Wong:I've been a user researcher for the past 26 years and 15 years into our consulting we started to notice our industry has been focusing way too much on tools and we notice that our colleagues and our you know, people that we work with are not embodying what we are trying to promote, which is human-centered design, the, the empathy part, especially. Sometimes we we see, you know, we don't really work well with each other, we don't get along, we don't try to understand what the other people are coming from. So all these behaviors we've seen, and so we were thinking to do a further study, do a master's or PhD, thinking to do a further study, do a master's or PhD, and after we consult with some seniors, we couldn't find anything. So we started our own research. So that's the beginning of our journey.
Josephine Wong:So after about two years we started to come up with the question how can we make meaningful work? Because we see so many people spend quite a big chunk of their time at work and if we don't enjoy it, it has quite a big damage to our health, which I'm very, very much into. Because when we see people get stressed doing projects and because when we see people get stressed doing projects and get sick. I don't think it's worth it. Yeah, so that's part of me.
Vincent Hiscox:Great, and I'll come back on a few points on that. Okay, so this is a health and wellness podcast, so we're in the right place. You're primarily concerned with health. The other thing that I heard from what you said there was human-centered design. So I guess this will bring out during the podcast, but it seems that what you're doing is human-centered, so that means that rather than putting the subject at the center, it's the human that is at the centre. And the other thing that I noted from what you said is that you started to do your own research, and I mean that's fundamental, so I guess what it was. You kind of looked around and tried to look and see what was available and you thought, hmm, there seems to be a hole somewhere. So that drove you down the, let's say, the route of doing your own fundamental research. Correct? Yeah, yeah, absolutely great. Okay, dan, over to you.
Daniel Szuc:Well, it feels great to be here with both of you. I've been in Hong Kong now living here, for 26 years, and we've been very fortunate to have travelled extensively for work and in our life, and I always feel very energised and excited to come back to Hong Kong. I think it's an amazing city that is very fortunate in where it's geographically placed for all sorts of reasons, particularly in terms of the multicultural aspect of it, in terms of where it is within Asia and the rest of the world, and the reason I started with that is because I grew up in Melbourne, australia. I still have little bits and bobs of an Aussie accent there. I can put on a pretty good Aussie accent if you want me to, but I think as a little kid growing up and as a young boy and then moving through kindergarten to primary school, to secondary school, to university and then starting work through my early career this is going back almost 30 years now. For whatever reason, melbourne's a great city as well and Australia's a lovely country, but it felt very removed. I always felt that there was something pulling at me or pecking at me, wanting to see more or pecking at me, wanting to see more, and so that's what I did. I left and I went walkabout. They talk about walkabout in Australia.
Daniel Szuc:I took initially a tour around Europe.
Daniel Szuc:I spent a number of months in Israel I've got family in Israel and some family on a kibbutz in Israel and then last stop before going back to Australia was Hong Kong. My brother moved to Hong Kong, so I'd been to Hong Kong a couple of times beforehand, but I was very fortunate to know this lovely lady sitting to my right and talk about a moment that matters. Right, we were I wouldn't even say we were necessarily friends at university, we just knew each other. Jo put a lot more effort into the relationship and the connection that I did, but we had kept some contact and when I came to Hong Kong I was very fortunate to reconnect with Jo and then we started on our adventure together 26 years ago and and it continues the good, the bad and the ugly of it which is culminating into a lot of really interesting things, including the work that we've done on Make Meaningful Work and the work that we've done with Make Meaningful Culture and the third book that we've got and that's across, which I love across adults and kids.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, great, and I'm sure we'll get on to the detail of Make Meaningful Work and Make Meaningful Culture and the third book that's coming, make Meaningful. So this is the key phrase in the titles of your two books and that will be in the third title as well. Yes, okay, so meaningful is the key word. What does that mean for you? Meaningful For me? Yeah.
Daniel Szuc:Well, a lot of my inspiration, a significant amount of my inspiration for the word meaningful comes from Joe. Again, you'll find I'll be quoting and referencing Joe quite a lot when we talk about meaningful. There are other people that clearly talk about meaningful in a very philosophical or aspirational type of way. In fact, a very popular book by an ex-Holocaust or a Holocaust survivor, viktor Frankl, wrote a book in the search of meaning and Joe was very conscious of the language of that.
Daniel Szuc:That meaning is not something that you search for although there's benefit in doing that but meaning is something that you take responsibility for. So the play on the language is it's not a search for meaning, it's inserting meaning into what you do. So it's like being on this podcast today. We look at it as it's not just Jo and Dan coming on as guests in the podcast. It's about Vincent, Jo and Dan creating something meaningful together by intention, and the intention is very important because if you're clear on the intention prior to even taking the minibus here or prior to even walking in the room or thinking through what our conduct will be in reference to making it successful, it goes a long way to inserting meaning, not in the search or finding meaning, but inserting meaning with intention in order to make something successful, equal to moments that matter. That is not just about me as an individual. It's about us, as a collective, sitting in this room today making a podcast.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah.
Daniel Szuc:And for your audience as well.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah yeah, for sure, and that's I mean, that's, you know, that's super, that's super profound. And I think what would be interesting and I'm sure it would be interesting from the listener's point of view is making meaningful work. What do you do to make meaningful work?
Josephine Wong:A big part of it is taking ownership and take actions. So the new book that we have is called Make Meaningful Culture and the sub-headline is healthy, intentional conduct in moments that matter. So healthy, intentional that's almost to the core. So our, our definition of culture is how you conduct yourselves in the interactions and relationships between people in moments that matter. So you can continue the healthy conduct chain, because when we think, the building blocks of culture is how we interact with each other, how are you intentionally conduct yourselves, whether that conduct contributes to the healthier relationship or unhealthy relationship. So that's why I think getting people to be aware of that and see how they conduct themselves in moments that matter can have quite a big and powerful effect on people and the culture. That's how we think about it, and do.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, yeah, super. And I mean, as you were talking and I was thinking, okay, so I'm a health and wellness coach and a large part of what I do with my clients and then they do the work. I don't do the work, I help them to do the work. But this concept of health, a lot of people translate that directly to physical and and then they kind of draw the line underneath it. This is why it's for me it's super to have you on the podcast today, because of course, the physical part is very important.
Vincent Hiscox:But what I find, even on a practical level, if I have a client that just wants to sort of concentrate on the physical and they haven't got the sort of, you know, the mental part sorted out, sometimes they can even put blockages for themselves. Sometimes they can be as bad as they even stop themselves. So this means that you know they could be going through a regime of doing more movement. But then you know, other things come up which are more on the sort of thinking side, more on the mental side, that really put a big blockage in terms of them getting a positive result. I do it on an intuitive basis.
Vincent Hiscox:I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure I haven't got the question there that I say fill in the question there and then I can figure out. You know from the person's point of view that particular aspect, but it becomes clear over time. Yeah, and I'm sure from you know everything that you've done and I know you've done so much research. You've got something to add to that in terms of where does that come from, in terms of the, you know, the intentional at the end and the healthy intentional. So maybe I'll pass that to you, dan.
Daniel Szuc:Yeah, it's a great observation and it's an excellent question. I'm going to use the word multifaceted not to sound smart, but it is multifaceted, but within the multifaceted elements that contribute to that, there are a couple that I think are very important. So if I think about the influences for me in my life, growing up in Australia and in Hong Kong and Joe is a very important influencer School was an important influencer. The youth group that I went to, which was primarily a socialist Jewish youth group in Melbourne, and the four or so years I did of theatre training, they all influenced the intention in different ways.
Vincent Hiscox:So your question again was about Really I mean this, you know, bringing this importance out of the sort of mental part of that.
Daniel Szuc:Right, right. So within all of that, I think about that as a culmination of experiences and I think about the multifaceted way of looking at it. There are a couple that are important, whether it's kids or adults. Number one you've actually got to care fundamentally. Yeah, it doesn't matter. We've been in business long enough and we've studied and been exposed to multiple processes and measures, which are in varying degrees of human and non-human.
Daniel Szuc:And whether you're working on the smallest piece of something or the largest piece of something, and whether it's micro-tactical or it's macro-strategic or anywhere in between, I think that there's a lot to be said about. Do you actually care about what you're doing? And that's number one. And number two are you aware of the output and the outcome of what you're doing? That affects the system in and around you, independent of what it's called. So it could be called. It could be called a script. The system itself could be a script in a play. It it could be the whole production beyond the script. It could be a supply chain, it could be something involved in manufacturing, it could be work on a particular product or service. It could be working right down at the component level.
Daniel Szuc:So I find that interplay interesting, the idea of do I care? Why do I care? How does that play out in my intention in reference to the conduct, interactions and relationships between people and moments that matter? Do people feel that like being on the podcast today? Do you, as a host, feel that from Joe and myself equal to that caring intention? And then the second part to that is how does that play within the ecosystem of a system that we're playing into? So the podcast is a little ecosystem going on technology at play, host, guest but there's also a larger ecosystem at play in terms of your listeners. So if you're aware of these things and you care about it, you're aware of the system.
Daniel Szuc:I think it goes a long way to help something be more successful versus being at the other end of the scale of not being aware at all and not caring and really not giving an F or a stuff about anything. And it affects the person, it affects their health because you're very interested in health and it affects the health of people around them as well that complete lack of intention and awareness.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, I think that from what you shared there, this concept of caring, it just happens on so many different levels. I mean the level of caring. You know, why am I a health coach? I'm most probably getting enough from my pension from when I was working to survive easily. So I don't do it for the money. So why do I do it?
Vincent Hiscox:Well, there's a bit of selfishness in there as well, because I think if I'm a health coach I have to be healthy myself, because you have to set a good role model. So that's another reason. But underlying all of that is because I care. I guess, like yourselves, you learn things as you go along and you kind of come up with your ideology, your philosophy, and you know if you believe in it and you feel that you want to share it. You share it because you care about other people. So it kind of underlies everything. It's a really nice word, care, with lots of different meanings. But yeah, I do my job as a health coach because I care.
Vincent Hiscox:And then if we come on to the podcast, it's the same. I mean the podcast for me is a lot more investment in time, a lot more investment in effort. And yeah, I get sort of zero revenue from the podcast. Maybe I should try and change that. But why do I do it?
Vincent Hiscox:Fundamental, it's really fundamental because I care, because I care about the subject and then obviously I care about the guests, like yourselves, that come on the show and then that goes into a podcast which, as long as I pay the money for it to be hosted, that stays there and you know, the podcast, I think, is up to 160 or 170. So now it's like a library People, if they say I'd be interested to know about that subject, they can dive into it and then they can listen to it. So I can empathise with everything that you're sharing there and I think you know, think this would be a great time, because I know you've written two books and number three is in the oven. Let's say, maybe we could start talking about your books and maybe, yeah, if you could do that, jo, sure, yeah, if you could do that too.
Josephine Wong:Sure. So the first book is called Meaningful Work and the subhead is From Sleepwalking to Sparkle, and that was published in 2021. So that was after quite a few years of research and editing and come up with a framework and tools that people can use. Because I'm also interested in a lot of philosophies as well, and by reading all these books and philosophies or papers about work, it started to frustrate me. Because, about work, it started to frustrate me because it's too much in the air and it's really hard to implement it.
Josephine Wong:We call it connect and contextualize it into your own environment to be able to take action. So that's why we have three pillars in it. One is widen your perspectives. Then you'll be able to connect the dots and take action, because if you don't take any action, it's a waste. One of my sore points is waste. We have so much waste around us Unnecessary politics or toxic culture at work.
Josephine Wong:You're wasting everyone's time and energy and you're affecting your wellness and health. That's a waste because it's unnecessary and you make bad decisions on these products and services that you're working on. It's affecting the quality and that's wasting your time and the resources of organization and as a society, we don't really allocate our resources on the right spot. So there's this waste all around us if we sleepwalk.
Josephine Wong:And sparkle is not about happiness as well. Sparkle is represented by supportive, proactive, adaptable, respect, kind listening and engaged, whether your conduct is sparkle intention with the sparkle intention, or your conduct has the outcome of sparkle Good. That's our first book and we published our second book on just this May. It's called Make Meaningful Culture. So we make our framework and tool even more accessible and simple to apply on culture, and this time around the subhead is healthy, intentional conduct in moments that matter. So that's the intention that we were talking about just now, because a lot of the times we are autopilot and we don't pay much attention or aware how we conduct ourselves in moments that matter and that can have very powerful impact on others and that shape shape culture. That's why our definition of culture is how you conduct yourselves, when you interact and relate with others in moments that matter, to carry out a healthy conduct chain, because if not, the unhealthy conduct chain can make a lot of damage.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, so many different things sort of popped into my brain as you were talking through that. But you know, let's come back to some of the key things. So one was you've put this into a nice word sparkle and then you know that helps people to remember. They have to remember what you know the S-P-A-R-K-L-E stand for, but then it gives them a kind of a framework for hanging it on and I think that is, you know, that's absolutely super. So many things popping into my head.
Vincent Hiscox:But the fact that you've kind of written two books and there's a third book on the way, that also tells me that the framework that you're sharing in your books is quite wide and it's also quite deep. It's difficult. It will be difficult for me to even envisage, you know, writing one book. But here you are and you're coming up to number three. And now I'm flipping back to something that you said earlier which I think is very important, is that the two books you've written and now the third book that you're in the process of writing, it's all based on research.
Vincent Hiscox:It's not something that's kind of plucked from the air. It's not somebody's almanac that you open and you take some lines out and say, yeah, that would be nice. In the book it's all done from research and it's all done from that optic that you keep talking about. Is that, of course, make meaningful work, moments that matter? Of course make meaningful work, moments that matter, make meaningful culture. And really for me they're bigger picture things. It's not a small picture, it's a big picture. But even in the big picture people can read it and then go back down to the detail. Is that a fair comment?
Daniel Szuc:Yeah, would you like to add to that, dan? I think it's easy for people listening into the podcast and or reading the books to think that it's all very philosophical and frameworky which it is, but Joe is an incredibly practical person and so there is a practicality to. Would you like me to help? There's a. As we're talking about practicality, I'm helping joe open the jar of tea.
Daniel Szuc:There's a practicality to the framework and there's a there's a reason why we keep repeating the definition around this conduct, interactions and relationships in moments that matter, that form part of the intention equal to the healthy conduct chain, and what that means is the practicality of it is. There are thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, maybe more, of books that are around health and self-help and philosophies, and there's lots that you can draw on right culture, business culture, character development, leadership development, or you can watch a ted talk, you can go to wonderful conferences and listen to fantastic keynotes, and from politics to philosophy, to economics, to finance, to all of it right, but often, but often, when people do that, they are listening to the words but they don't know what to do with it, and the reason, part of the reason they don't know what to do with it is. It comes down to three other things that Jo also talks about, which are do I know?
Josephine Wong:who I am. And do I accept who I am? And then how can I improve?
Daniel Szuc:who I am. So do I know who I am? Do I accept who I am? And accepting accepting who you are isn't about, uh, accept who I am, and that's what you have to deal with, and bad luck. It's not. It's not belligerent like that, but it's. But it's a form of a centeredness equal to knowing who you are, which implies that you have to look at the things that you need to improve. And then do I keep improving? Right Now, if you've got those three plus you've got the widened perspectives connect the dots and the take action.
Daniel Szuc:And then you've got the widened perspectives, connect the dots and the take action. And then you've got the application of the framework and use the use of a tool that we developed in Make Meaningful work, called practice spotting, which is about turning words to action. Then it's simplified to this what's Vincent's story? What's Joe's story? What's Dan's story? What's the story within the context of an organization that we're working in?
Daniel Szuc:And what is it that I practically need to do through my conduct that we will record in what we call conduct cards that land or are pinpointed I think that's the language you use.
Daniel Szuc:They pinpoint into specific moments that matter, that have a practicality and an intention and it's not about being fake, but it's about being intentional to say, ok, this is how I used to conduct myself in this moment, and now this is alternate, these are a plethora of different ways that I can conduct myself. That's improving the moment to make it healthier, but not just for myself, but for the collective. And we have found Vincent. We found that's the biggest gap when it comes to improvement or organizational transformation or culture change or any other big frameworks or language that they talk about, is that it stays very frameworky and high level but people don't know what to do with it. They don't know how to take action. And that's why Jo has refined she's refined the process and the framework further in the second book and we're going to refine it further in the third book, which we'll reveal shortly, because a lot of the problems that we're seeing human conduct go all the way back to either parenting and or, primarily, education.
Vincent Hiscox:Yep, and I thank you very much for that. From a big picture point of view, then you know, I get this concept of from words to practical action, then, even overlying that from a person, and the personal development is so, what do I do? So these they're fundamental questions and it's very easy I mean, as a self-help junkie myself it's very easy for me to sort of read a book and think yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I kind of think what do I do now? I've got all this. You know, I've got this knowledge, I've got this way of looking at the world. I can see examples in the real world of what they were talking about in the book. And then you know what do I do.
Vincent Hiscox:Sometimes it's kind of obvious what it is you have to do.
Vincent Hiscox:My personal belief is that if you and I'll talk for myself if I want to change, I have to keep it really simple, because as soon as it gets complex, my poor brain it can't hold on to it and it just goes in one ear and it goes out to the other one.
Vincent Hiscox:So I'm always looking for something that's kind of simple and I guess the other thing from a personal point of view, and I'm sure a lot of people do. It is when you come across something new and you try and sort of pin it to something that you already know. You kind of pin it to something in your existing framework and sometimes maybe your existing framework isn't a existing framework and sometimes you know, maybe your existing framework isn't a good framework. But yeah, I guess from and I haven't read the books and I certainly will read the books from the book point of view, from what you've explained what I understand is that really it's keeping it simple, keeping it on the level that people can undertake it, so they can take action, maybe before we sort of draw a line under the sort of books. Anything you would like to add to that?
Josephine Wong:Yeah, so taking small actions. The key to it is we'll teach the practice spotting method in three eyes. So one is to identify and two is to inspect and three is to improve. So by doing these three eyes, you'll be able to pinpoint where your problem is, where you want to correct your conduct. Because we boil it down to your conduct, that's the smallest thing you can do, right, and this method teaches you how to pinpoint that in moments that matter, which will help you to multiply the effect right. And then the improvement part is.
Josephine Wong:The key to it is it has to come from yourself. We're not, we're not telling you which moment that matters for you and what you can do as an alternative of your previous conduct. So you need to figure out some small exercise that you can practice, try it out yourself, or find a buddy that you guys can reflect, encourage each other. So these small things need to come from you, because it's like anything I think everybody experienced this at school or at home when you were younger that oh, tell me what to do, and those things I wouldn't do it. So this, this is kind of um key to the method, but it's, it's quite easy to learn. The hardest thing is to do it and sustain it.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, I can relate a story to that. Whenever you want to change a habit, a lot of people they know what they should be doing, but do they do it? And it's that getting from I know to I do, which is you know? That's the chasm, let's say, and that's where you can build a bridge.
Josephine Wong:Yeah. So the bridge we're trying to give you is the context. That's the moment that matter. So once you can pinpoint that, when people talk about changing habits or whatever, it's very high level and it doesn't really again connect and contextualize. So by pinpointing the moment that matters, you can connect to yourself and contextualize it. So that means it's easier to do action.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, the other thing which you said, which I really you know again it resonates with me as a health coach is take small actions. You know, take those actions, and the listeners will have heard this many times, but I'll say it again anyway Do the things that you can do easily. Take the action that you know you can achieve what you set out to do and when you do achieve it, celebrate. Then when you come to do it again later, the brain is already thinking oh yeah, the last time I did this it was like it felt good. You know, maybe I'll do it again. So that helps, you know, build that sort of that action into being a habit and keeps it in the part of the brain that it should go to, and so it doesn't become a big thinking process. In the end it becomes. You know, it's eight o'clock, I have to make my coffee now, for example, but it can be any habit that anybody wants to undertake and also this identify, inspect and improve. It's all well and good. I mean and I'll speak personally then it's easy, you know, it's all well and good for me to identify something which I think I'll give an example. It's always better to have an example. I kind of have the feeling that my memory is deteriorating. So I okay, so I've gone off and, you know, read some books about this, so I've identified it. Now I also go through the process of inspecting that. You know, when something slips from my memory, I think, oh yeah, that slipped from my memory there. Then it gives me almost the action to improve.
Vincent Hiscox:It's a classic one. You want to do something, you're in one room, you walk into another room and you think, oh my God, what was it? Then I have to go back to the first room where I was. Oh yeah, then I can go back again. Okay, they're little anecdotes, but I think they help to sort of paint a picture of what it is you're proposing in your books. But I think they help to sort of paint a picture of you know what it is you're proposing in your books and you know how you're working together. Yeah, so I thank you for that Really good. Anything you want to add to that, dan?
Daniel Szuc:I think Jo and myself are systems thinkers myself are systems thinkers.
Daniel Szuc:I I think we try our best not to just talk about things in theory but apply it to our own existence, in our relationship and also with the people that we work with or collaborate with, like yourself, and so that the the implication of that is one if you, if you know who you are and you accept who you are and you keep improving and you connect that through to your own story, and if that becomes clearer when you're young, you've got a lot of very amazing runway ahead of you in terms of your life that we know that don't know who they are, don't accept who they are and they don't keep improving and they don't know what their story is or their narrative is equal to their life and on the surface they appear to be very successful in terms of money, in terms of assets, but they haven't really aligned on truly who they are.
Daniel Szuc:And this is not a deep or philosophical thing, this is just a very practical thing. So when we're moving towards the third book and the reveal here is the third book Joe is going to be- Make Meaningful Education.
Daniel Szuc:When we're thinking about Make Meaningful Education and Joe can talk a little bit about this if we have time we have to remodel and reframe the role of the educator. So the current model of the educator is predominantly and I'm oversimplifying is you come into class, you be quiet and I'm going to download data to you and do my utmost, based on the current curriculum, to channel you into particular functions within society that will suit industry and speak to the current measures of what success looks like. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a healthy outcome, and it generally isn't a healthy outcome for a lot of people, right, and it also causes a lot of problems in a macro and a micro way because of that system. If you flip it another way and we create a model in which there's an opportunity from when you're young to know a little bit more who you are, to accept a bit more who you are, to keep improving, to widen your perspectives, connect the dots and take action around the sense of your authentic narrative, well that becomes really interesting. And if we attach and we think about different measures pertaining to that success in life and in work, well that has a whole lot of new possibilities as well.
Daniel Szuc:So there's a lot of runway ahead with Make Meaningful Work, the question of how we make meaningful work, make meaningful culture and how we make meaningful education on how we think about the whole world. The things that are going on right now as of 2025, and I'm not going to list them out, you only have to open a newspaper is unacceptable, absolutely unacceptable. Equal to 2025, equal to some form of enlightened future. I mean, it's just batshit crazy what's going on right now. This has to be addressed at one of the sources of how people think and behave and conduct themselves in the world in moments that matter, with education, and we probably should have started with education. But that's where we're at.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, and I thank you for sharing that and I mean it's great and I'm certainly looking forward to this. You know, make meaningful education. I was smiling all the way through when you were talking because I used to be a teacher. I was a teacher for like 16 years and yeah, for sure, I started off when I was teaching with that kind of mindset you, how did my teachers teach me? Well, I should teach my pupils in the same way. But but over time that changed.
Vincent Hiscox:I was able to sort of see, usually, you see, you get an insight when you're working as a teacher in education, when you have a difficult class. When you have a difficult class, it makes you have a difficult class, it makes you think and it's sort of you know what's going on here. How can we, what can we do to kind of improve it? And I was faced with that situation almost immediately in my teaching and that meant I mean, it was horrible at the time but it was a blessing in the end because that then gave me the education. It gave me the sort of the, the tools to take that forward and and to change the way that I taught so that the pupils that came afterwards, they, they kind of got the benefit. But okay, that's. You know, that's my story and that's another thing, but I think, from what you've shared with us, for me, yeah, I'm going to read the books, that's for sure, and I think that you know everything that you've shared. The messages that you've passed are very simple to understand, and then it's an action of just doing it again.
Vincent Hiscox:What I'd like to do now in the podcast is turn things around a bit, and it's you've been doing it all already, but I'll ask the question formally. If you had to give advice to the listeners, what would be your advice to the listeners? Okay, this is a classic question that I put in. You know, how can people help themselves themselves, knowing what you know? Now, with all the research that you've done, with the books that you've written and the third book on its way, what would be, from a listener's point of view, what would be your advice for helping themselves?
Josephine Wong:I think one of the things that you can help yourself is to reflect with a structure. I would say this is related to our latest book on culture. So, if you remember so, whether it's a work or in a family, when there is more than one person that interact, they'll create culture. So, whether you interact with your kids, interact with your family, interact with your co-workers, I think the reflection structure is how you conduct yourself. That's the intention in the interaction and relationship between people in moments that matter. So, reflect around. This can be very helpful, I think, because that can prepare you to be more intentional and aware of your conduct in moments that matter.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, super, super advice Very good. How would you add to that, Dan?
Daniel Szuc:It's not all about you. Be curious about other people, be curious about other cultures, be curious in differences. Be curious in similarities. Travel, read.
Daniel Szuc:Don't get caught up with narrow narratives. Don't fall into the trap of biases and scapegoating and looking for enemies or pushing away the responsibility to improve. Take responsibility for your own narrative, but in doing that, it's not all about you. The way that you improve your narrative is join a podcast, go for lunch, read a book, watch shows where other people are talking to other intelligent people. Immerse in local, immerse in global Form your own story, but don't be too carried away with yourself and your own ego within that story.
Daniel Szuc:Allow that. Think. If you think of that story of you as a script that is is constantly being iterated, with new chapters being added all the time, and if you're going to produce that now and in the long term, you need a good. You need a good crew in the studio around you to help do that. It means you need a lot of different disciplines and a lot of different ways of thinking of making that Great. And finally, just work on being smarter. Work on having higher IQ.
Daniel Szuc:Eq, sq, fq. I don't know I'm making up Qs now. Whatever Qs you need right in order to improve the conduct, interactions and relationships between people in moments that matter where you are more explicitly affecting the conduct chain, because you are doing that whether you know it or not. It's better to know it in reference to your own narrative and help other people with their narratives and stories, and let's get on together and think about the possibilities and action the possibilities of what these new models can be, because we are running out of time and it's not people that's forcing us to run out of time, it's nature that's telling us we're running out of time and the alarms are ringing everywhere. So podcasts like this and people beyond us, anybody that can help people frame and reframe and get people to action in healthier ways towards new models of life and work, bring it on yeah, I'm going to highlight a few things that you said there.
Vincent Hiscox:It's not all about you be curious, work on being smarter and take healthy action, so that's absolutely, absolutely super. So we're coming towards the end of the podcast now and I'm sure you know I'm sure we could carry on talking for longer, and I think when the new book comes out, that'll be a great opportunity to come back and and repeat the process and that will also give me some time to read your books as well. Yeah, I thank you very much, but just before we finish the podcast, one of you can choose. You have to give a key message in one minute.
Daniel Szuc:An organisation is like a garden. Metrics are the visible fruit and flowers, the tangible signs of success that everyone sees, but beneath them lies the soil, the culture. You can't see it, but it's what makes everything grow. Without healthy soil, even the most beautiful plants will wither.
Josephine Wong:Organizational culture exists, whether you acknowledge it or not. By our definition, organisational culture is the way people conduct themselves, shaped by their interactions and relationships in moments that matter.
Daniel Szuc:Interactions are the foundation of culture. Yet in an age of digital distractions, we've lost the art of meaningful engagement, leaving many unaware of their own intention. So the book, the recent book that we wrote Make Meaningful Culture isn't just about discussing culture in theory or passively, or observing it. Instead, it provides a practical framework to identify, inspect and improve those interactions through intention, helping you take ownership and shaping a healthy culture for teams and organizations, and I think we've done a great job of creating a culture on the podcast today. It's been fantastic.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, super, I really appreciate your inputs. I mean, it's great what I see from talking to you this morning and we had a pre-meeting for sure but today I really get to know what it is you're doing. You know what is your philosophy, what is your method of action and, yeah, I would say absolutely fantastic. So thank you very much for that. And the very last question, very important question how do people get in touch with you?
Josephine Wong:Our website is www. makemeaningfulwork. com.
Daniel Szuc:Yep. We also have our consulting website, which is www. apogeehk. com, and I think, beyond that, linkedin is the best way you can look up Josephine Wong on LinkedIn. Daniel Szuc is easier on LinkedIn. There's only one S-Z-U-C, and we can also connect you with our Make Meaningful Work group on LinkedIn and also our Make Meaningful Work LinkedIn newsletter as well.
Vincent Hiscox:Absolutely super. So plenty of links and plenty of information for people to know more. And, yeah, I'd just like to say to both of you thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's so good.
Josephine Wong:Thank you for having us.
Vincent Hiscox:Thanks a lot, it's been great.
Vincent Hiscox:Yeah, coming on the podcast, it's so good. Thank you for having us. Thanks a lot, it's been great. Yeah, thank you.
Vincent Hiscox:Great podcast with Jo and Dan, with lots of great takeaways. And here are my takeaways.
Vincent Hiscox:. Recognize moments that matter, those pivotal experiences.
Vincent Hiscox:. Move from sleepwalking, feeling stuck, to sparkle.
Vincent Hiscox:3. Sparkle Be supportive, proactive, adaptable, respect, kind, listening and engaged.
Vincent Hiscox:4. Take responsibility for your own narrative form, your own story.
Vincent Hiscox:5. It's not all about you. Be curious about other people, other cultures, differences and similarities.
Vincent Hiscox:If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. Please share with your family and friends. You're welcome to email me with feedback, comments and questions at vincenthiscox at outlookcom. Would you enjoy getting a short weekly email from me where I share simple tips that you can put into practice to improve your health? Subscribe to Vincent's Wellness Newsletter at vincent1cd. substack. com. If you are looking to get into the best shape of your life, to look and feel your best, visit my coaching website, procoach. app/ vincent- hiscox. All of the references to the websites will be in the show notes. And don't forget to share the episode with a
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